[SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality

Josh Garrett jgarrett at iversity.net
Mon Mar 15 15:01:56 PDT 2010


In teleportation, an apple, would indeed be an apple. 

 

Yet, the human being would be a material copy the same as an apple, not the “You”. Think of genetic identical twins, they are exact copies or clones to the most precise degree, they split from the same egg cell and contain exactly the same information with no variation whatsoever. Yet, amazingly, they are two individual people each with their own unique and personal identity. Where does the “I” come from? What about consciousness? Quantum teleportation renders molecular structure, can karma be replicated or even defined by the laws of physics?

 

For example, from a Buddhist perspective, would the “copy” that was teleported contain all of the Karma and mental continuum, or would the copy be free of all previous karma? Like you said, this is along the same lines as an upload, would that upload contain your Karma?

 

Josh

 

From: educators-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:educators-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Greenlee
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:37 PM
To: SL Educators
Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality

 

To explain why and how Buddhism rejects the whole concept of " soul" is a complex religious discussion.

 

Instead, I will point out that what we have been discussing also applies to the idea of teleportation.

Is the you who is beamed up still "You"?

 


On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:10 PM, "Josh Garrett" <jgarrett at iversity.net> wrote:

Hi Jonathan, 

 

With all due respect, you just described a “soul” in my opinion. Since ancient times, specifically Egypt, recognition of past deeds and mental continuum was how “one” traveled through the Duat or afterlife, and into a new shell if that was decided (the scarab). They referred to the main parts as the Ba and Ka.

 

I also agree that our entire make is more than mere “matter”, and until we can technologically get our heads around that, there will be no uploading “Us”. 

 

Even science used to recognize things in the non-matter realm, which they referred to as Ether. I think many ancient civilizations in many ways would have been closer to accomplishing what is being discussed here, as many saw no difference between science and spirituality.

 

Instead of uploading “Us”, there will be a copy of brain patterns and holographic depictions we refer to as “reality”, which are associated with what was going on in our brains at the time the copy and upload took place. There will be little to no personality, however, there will be a response to stimuli which would still qualify the “copy” as an organism.

 

Josh

 

From: educators-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:educators-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Greenlee
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:44 PM
To: SL Educators (The SLED List)
Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality

 


That is a very interesting but Buddhist question, not a computer question.  I appologize for this religious content:

 

In Buddhist thought, what gets transferred in the incarnation of the Dalai Lama (and any other person) is the Karma and Mental Continuum which constitutes the Dharmakaya.  They are not a person but the sum total of the consequences of previous actions and the memories and previous inclinations that produced them.  This Dharmakaya generates a new person who is similar in important ways to the previous no-longer-existing person.

 

And in Buddhist thought, this also happens during sleep and (one other situation).  (Except for the complete replacement of the body which does not take place, in sleep only a partial replacement of the body takes place in the form of healing and growth.)

 

Again I appologize for the religious content.


--- On Mon, 3/15/10, Alexandrine Librarian <alexandrinelibrarian at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Alexandrine Librarian <alexandrinelibrarian at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality
To: jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com, "SL Educators (The SLED List)" <educators at lists.secondlife.com>
Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 3:14 PM

Hi Jonathan.....let me ask you another then based your response...what exactly gets transferred in the incarnation of the Dalai Lama?  

Larry

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Jonathan Greenlee <jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com> wrote:


First, on behalf of Buddhism I must say that our non-christian religion does not find a "soul" or any other eternal thing or supernatural thing  "as the essential makeup of a person".

 

The discussion of what "You" are and if it can be copied becomes an arguement, degenerates into "No you can't" "Can Too!" etc.

 

What I think about is:

 

I wave my magic wand and now I am inside this perfect immortal robot.

Now what?

 

I find that question much more interesting.

 

Thank you for your kind attention


--- On Mon, 3/15/10, Alexandrine Librarian <alexandrinelibrarian at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Alexandrine Librarian <alexandrinelibrarian at gmail.com>


Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality

To: jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com, "SL Educators (The SLED List)" <educators at lists.secondlife.com>
Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 2:07 PM

 

As I read these responses, and as term "cyber-theology" was used in the first post, traditionally, theology, both ancient and present, Christian and non-Christian has recognized the existence of the human soul as the essential makeup of a person that leaves the physical body after death.  I do not see how you can copy an exact person without considering  what is called the transmigration of the soul.  Without considering the soul I do not think you have anything close to a "theology", cyber or otherwise.  The human soul is the YOU and hence the copy could not be complete.

Larry

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Jonathan Greenlee <jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com> wrote:


I want to perform the following thought experiment:

 

I have created in front of you a robot.  It is a perfected copy of your body, it contains a perfect copy of all of your memories, knowledge, beliefs, attitudes, preferences,and every other characteristic of your mind.  It processes these in the same way you think and produces the exact same behaviors you would produce to the same experiences.

 

As you observe the robot, is it "you" or are you "You"? 

 

(P.S. - I am not arguing in favor of any supernatural thing making you "You".  There seems to be some impermanent natural thing in your location that determines what is "You".)

--- On Mon, 3/15/10, Giulio Prisco <gp1 at metafuturing.com> wrote:


From: Giulio Prisco <gp1 at metafuturing.com>


Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality

To: "SL Educators (The SLED List)" <educators at lists.secondlife.com>
Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 1:36 PM

 

Well.. I am afraid science cannot answer this question objectively
yet, and personal answers are determined by personal philosophical
preferences. My own preference is identifying [spirit = the
computational dynamical patterns in our brain]. Nothing beyond
computation, no "mystery", no "soul". From these assumption it follows
that mind uploading is feasible in principle once certain (difficult)
technical issues are solved, but of course your own assumptions may
differ.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Panico, Roseanne
<rpanico at readington.k12.nj.us> wrote:
> Can you separate the person from the spirit or are they one in the same?  Religion will of course play into this for some while others might disagree.  I am spiritual so maybe that taints my thinking.  Just something to think about.  While the idea of leaving a personal “footprint” is awesome (in the literal sense of the word) we also need to think of the repercussions with such discoveries.
>
>
>
> This thread has certainly got me to thinking today.  Thank you!
>
> Best,
>
> Roseanne
>
>
>
> From: educators-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:educators-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Frederic Emam-Zade
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 2:10 PM
> To: jonathangreenlee at yahoo.com; SL Educators (The SLED List)
>
> Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality
>
>
>
> I can imagine discussions like this one, taking place several centuries back, when someone might have proposed that voices or images could be somehow recorded, not in books or paintings, but in a machine...
>
>
>
> I also remember one time, several years ago, when traveling deep in a rural area of Guatemala, I decided to take a picture of two "indigenous" youngsters, who had never been photographed before, and how they thought I had captured their "spirit" inside that machine and how on of them asked me to please release it.
>
>
>
> Technologies such as fMRI and others are just starting to provide glimpses into what goes on inside our brain and these technologies could perfectly evolve and/or derivate into some new media that could help us record our memories or thoughts and even help us share and communicate these among ourselves. But in no case would we be uploading ourselves  into a machine, just certain thoughts or memories, because not even our brain retains for long our thoughts or memories.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Jonathan Greenlee wrote:
>
> It will take a magic wand rather than a faster-broader computer to upload "you" into a computer.
>
> When you upload a book into a computer you either scan it or have a typist read the book and type the same words in.  You have a representation of the words of the book in the computer and you STILL HAVE the book sitting on the scanner or in the typist's hand.  The book does not enter the computer.
>
> When I created Expert Systems for medical diagnosis I interviewed world-class diagnosticians and created models of their thoughts, beliefs, values, and decision strategies which I translated into program logic and tables to be searched.  But no part of the Doctors ever left their bodies and entered the computers.
>
> The Science Fiction Fantasy of leaving your body and entering an immortal robot body is a fun fantasy but nothing more.  You can create a representation of your thoughts, beliefs, memories, and attitudes - but it is not "You".
>
>
>
> Thank "YOU" for your kind attention
>
> --- On Mon, 3/15/10, slhi <slhi at mail.rochester.edu> wrote:
>
> From: slhi <slhi at mail.rochester.edu>
> Subject: Re: [SLED] Book Review - Apocalyptic AI: Visions of Heaven in Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and Virtual Reality
> To: iggyono at gmail.com, "Frederic Emam-Zade" <femamzade at me.com>
> Cc: "SL Educators (The SLED List)" <educators at lists.secondlife.com>
> Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 10:43 AM
>
> Seconded, Iggy!  Okay now: I've dreamed of having an android body and the
> removal of death--what a boon it would be for the severely handicapped; I do
> fear dwindling cognitive and physical abilities, and see more years piling up
> behind me than ahead.  Should this technology be available to me, now, I'm not
> sure what I would do, so I think I also agree with Roseanne.  I am not averse to
> cybernetics.  I would welcome fixing my body and prolonging my life. But
> uploading my brain to a "computer"?  What might be lost?  I might have better
> memory, but what might I forget? What passions could be muted? What about sexual
> desire and fulfillment? What if I cease to dream at night? Rejuvenate my flesh
> and my brain. Enhancements, terrific! But complete replacement?
>
> Perhaps that image of metal electronic circuits gets in the way of imagining a
> "wet" interface. (Too much outdated sf.) So yes, Giulio. But I think we are a
> long way from that, despite the argument about "exponential" technical growth.
> I really don't think this is going to happen in the twenties.  If it does, my
> surmise is that it will only be available to the privileged.
>
> I take back my remark about my "rhetorical" voice, Giulio.  I reread my message
> and I DO have real fears about being trapped in a bottle.  But you snipped about
> three paragraphs of that, so I wasn't reminded. ;) Pace...
>
> Yes, this is fascinating.
> Sarah
>
>
> > What a fascinating discussion. I'll look forward to the materials
> > about transhumanism that have been supplied on this thread.
> >
> > To those longing for the upload: I support your right to do so. If it
> > happens in my lifetime, I'll be retired on the farm, growing food for
> > those who still need their flesh, and hoping the dire situation does
> > not get to grim as oil supplies deplete.
> >
> > Let me know when you have an android body with all five senses, plus
> > the upload capacity. That might be interesting...but no flesh, no fun
> > for me :)
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Frederic Emam-Zade <femamzade at me.com> wrote:
> >  (2) Future user interfaces, such as augmented reality, virtual
> > > reality. virtual worlds, blended reality, virtual agents, bots, lifelogging,
> > > breakthroughs in computer graphics, holographic and 3D displays,
> > > teleimmersion, telepresence, haptic interfaces, personalized learning, and
> > > extracting knowledge from massive volumes of data via data analysis, data
> > > mining, and information visualization:
> > > you can see our curriculum here:
> > > http://singularityu.org/programs/curriculum/
> > > and some videos of our lectures and classes here:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/singularityu
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Joe Essid, University of Richmond Rhetoric & Communication Studies
> >
> > Iggy Strangeland: Reaction Grid
> > Iggyo Heritage: Heritage Key
> > Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Second Life
> >
> > blog: http://iggyo.blogspot.com
> > Web: http://virtualworldsedu.info/
> >
>
> Professor of English
> University of Rochester
> Rochester, NY 14627
> slhi @ mail dot rochester dot edu
> Py dydwc glein o erddygnawt vein?
> "What brings a gem from a hard stone? (Book of Taliesin)
> _______________________________________________
> Educators mailing list
> To unsubscribe
> https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators
>
> _______________________________________________
> Educators mailing list
> To unsubscribe
> https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Notice: Use of this email system is governed under district policies listed at http://www.readington.k12.nj.us/networktermsofuse This e-mail message, together with any attachments is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named on this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete it from your system.
>
> ________________________________
> Notice: This e-mail message, together with any attachments, contains information of Readington Township Public Schools/Readington Township Board of Education (52 Readington Road, Whitehouse Station, New Jersey, USA 08889 - further contact information is available at http://www.readington.k12.nj.us/) and/or its affiliates, that may be confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named on this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete it from your system
>
> _______________________________________________
> Educators mailing list
> To unsubscribe
> https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators
>



--
Giulio Prisco
gp at metafuturing.com (remove 1)
http://metafuturing.com/
(39)3387219799
giulioprisco @ skype
_______________________________________________
Educators mailing list
To unsubscribe
https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators



_______________________________________________
Educators mailing list
To unsubscribe
https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators



_______________________________________________
Educators mailing list
To unsubscribe
https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/educators

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2713 - Release Date: 03/15/10 07:33:00

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.436 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2713 - Release Date: 03/15/10 07:33:00

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/educators/attachments/20100315/d42807e6/attachment.htm 


More information about the Educators mailing list