[SLED] SL reputation

Eloise Pasteur eloisepasteur at gmail.com
Sun May 24 00:04:06 PDT 2009


I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm very tired (it's got light and I  
haven't been to bed yet tired) so I will apologise in advance if it  
comes out sounding like that.

In my lifetime, in the UK, two gay men holding hands anywhere could be  
arrested and incarcerated in a mental hospital in an attempt to cure  
their insanity. We have changed our attitudes incredibly in 40-odd  
years. Our legislation still treats straight couples, gay men and  
lesbians differently - different ages of consent, rules about marriage/ 
civil partnership etc. What did that say our about society then, and  
what does it say about it now that gay men are still the most tightly  
restricted of these groups?

My problem with Gor is two-fold: I'm deeply opposed to the concept of  
slavery, which is pretty central to Gor; and, although it's not only  
females who are slaves, I'm also deeply opposed to the concept of a  
society in which gender is the sole determining feature of your role  
in life. The D/s stuff (no surprise to many of you I'm sure) doesn't  
bother me in the slightest - but then I'm a sub and very out about it  
in SL, and increasingly out about it IRL too. But, I am still curious  
about one thing - you talk about Gor as if it's the only place you  
will see someone dragging someone else around on the end of a chain,  
and as if it's only males in the dominant role (which is not the case  
even in Gor). It probably says something about the places I frequent,  
but I'm far more likely to see a woman leading/dragging another woman  
around on the end of one (or more) chains. You can and do see men  
doing the same, but my (not statistically significant) observation is  
more women dommes than male masters. I'm left wondering what that says  
about the portrayal of gender roles in society in your mind? Whilst  
talking about gay men, although it's no longer there, I used to live  
in a sim with a gay D/s club in one corner. I'm fairly sure that there  
were men dragging other men about by chains there. There are various  
femdom places around in SL too, where it's most likely to be a woman  
dragging a man around. Until recently half of the sim neighbouring  
mine was run by such a group. Do these offend you too?

I can't comment in depth on Gor, it's really not my cup of tea, but  
whilst outwardly D/s relationships may appear to be abusive and  
demeaning to one party, they are generally (in my experience, personal  
and by talking to others) incredibly loving, trusting, intimate and  
respectful. Both (or all) parties involved choose to express their  
sexuality in this particular way (just like in times gone by there  
were gay men who chose to marry and raise children rather than express  
their sexuality, there are people who are wired for D/s that won't  
express it for various reasons) and they do so in a way that both  
builds and requires trust and intimacy, respect almost inevitably  
grows from that, and I find it hard to imagine that I could trust,  
respect and be intimate with someone to the level required without  
loving them too. For sure there are bad D/s relationships, but there  
are bad vanilla ones too - and not only ones that get into abuse and  
violence. But although in many places the law takes a dim view of D/s  
relationships they're still out there, stable and thriving.

For sure there are times and places that outward displays of D/s would  
be inappropriate. I wouldn't expect someone to turn up to a class and  
emote all over the class about dragging their slave around - but at  
the same time I wouldn't expect a gay couple to turn up and emote all  
over the class about holding hands, kissing, stroking each others legs  
and the like. Both couples may do that in IM to their hearts' content  
as far as I'm concerned, it's the disrupting the class thing that  
would bother me - I would be just as bothered if someone turned up to  
class as was talking over it about their latest shopping, their last  
class or similar.

El.

On 24 May 2009, at 02:27, Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

> It goes without saying that discussions on subjects like this are  
> sensitive, and bound to be felt deeply personally.  This, I think,  
> is true of both sides of the debate:  your brawling feminists,  
> however much we should deplore such tactics, are certainly giving  
> evidence of their own depth of feeling about what they feel are the  
> most important issues facing women.  I trust you will believe me  
> when I say that I am sensitive to your feelings, and that my  
> intention is to explore, discuss, and (yes) even learn, rather than  
> attack.
>
> I do want to ask you, however, about your use of the analogy of the  
> lack of acceptance that homosexuals once faced over public shows of  
> affection.  To me, there is an order of difference at work here:   
> two gay men holding hands or kissing is a public as well as private  
> demonstration of mutual love and respect, while the interplay  
> between, say, a dom and a collared female sub, however real the  
> ACTUAL love and respect the two may feel for each other, likely  
> "says" (to me, and others I know) something rather different in a  
> public context.
>
> Probably you disagree?  Let me ask you this, then:  for me, there  
> aren't too many places in RL or SL where I would think the hand- 
> holding and kissing between our hypothetical men inappropriate.  Are  
> there contexts where you would find RPing M/s, of any sort,  
> inappropriate?  Or does it belong anywhere that we might also find  
> our two gay men holding hands?  On a virtual campus, for example, or  
> at an educational event?
>
> BTW, while I don't doubt what you say about sub-dragging in many or  
> ever most cases, the particular instance that I witness was, if the  
> accompanying public chat was anything to go by, very deliberate  
> indeed.
>
> Scylla
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